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Dan Listermann
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 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:cOSdnWr9Sc2WpjbVnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:74adnRBvT4mIrTfVnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Well I guess you can define "real" as things you have imagined if you
want
to. I won't.
Can God be real just as money is real?
No, I can hold money in my hand. I can't hold imaginary beings in my
hand. This is a big difference.
Have you ever seen a crucifix?
Which is just another idol/god.
Just like money?
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You can't buy much ice cream with imaginary deities unless you are some sort
of cult leader and then only indirectly. |
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Dan Listermann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneGQhalkozbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnWIt5qxedTfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:s_udnZfSypyg1TrVnZ2dnUVZ_gOdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Don't believe everything
that comes to your mind.
Excellent advice. I await evidence that you have practiced it.
Do you meditate at all?
I sleep.
At least daydream once in a while.
Sure, but I don't day dream about imaginary beings.
How about the perfect justice in the world?
Does it require imaginary beings?
Is the perfect justice real?
Not unless you can define it in a sane manner.
Is money definable in a sane manner?
Sane enough for reasonable people to take seriously.
Are you trying to say that
it is unreasonable to decide to do more good than harm
by following the message of Jesus Christ?
LEFT FIELD. Try again. |
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Dan Listermann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneCQham7ojbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnZ0s5qyadDfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:7amdnQsWms1HrDfVnZ2dnUVZ_oninZ2d@ptd.net...
Is constructiveness simpler than goodness?
Does it have more explanatory power?
How about symbolic richness?
Oooo! Symbolic richness! That is rich!
Many people would weep at hearing the word 'freedom'.
"Freedom" is a relative term. It is never absolute and to use it that
way
is to abuse it. You can have more or less freedom, but you cannot just
have, or not have, freedom.
Would you like to be absolutely free?
Free from what?
If you carefully read my above post you should find that "freedom" is not
absolute but relative like "big."
Always?
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OK, give us an example of something that has absolute freedom . . . |
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Dan Listermann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneOQhanwojbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbqAT-budDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:0OidnVVd8srg0TfVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@ptd.net...
Are you trying to say God exists?
Only in imagination.
Is money imaginary?
Can you put deities in your pocket and buy ice cream with them later?
Can you say a few words
and be forgiven for all sins?
Religobabble
Would you like to change people for the better
by just talking to them for an hour or so?
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Yes, getting you to give up your superstitious imaginings would make you a
far better person. |
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Dan Listermann
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneKQhamV3TbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbWAT-ZYdDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:uI6dnclgspXetzfVnZ2dnUVZ_gydnZ2d@ptd.net...
Why are you trying so hard to limit God?
I am not - gods don't exist.
You are confused.
Even if God is created by humans,
He must exist at least as much as money and democracy.
Until you offer an explanation of the above, it will be considered
utter
nonsense.
If humans create something,
that something must exist.
Humans can create imaginary beings that only exist in their minds. Is
that what you mean by "exist?"
How many modes of existence do you have
in your scheme of things?
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Me, I deal with the one known as "reality."
You are perfectly free to imagine as many as you want if that floats your
boat. |
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monkfish
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Thom Madura wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneOQhanwojbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbqAT-budDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:0OidnVVd8srg0TfVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@ptd.net...
Are you trying to say God exists?
Only in imagination.
Is money imaginary?
Can you put deities in your pocket and buy ice cream with them later?
Can you say a few words
and be forgiven for all sins?
Religobabble
Would you like to change people for the better
by just talking to them for an hour or so?
Sure - I'll be glas to meet your gods and talk to them - when can you
arrange a public meeting - I allert the media!
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God speaks through people.
Talk to Christians.
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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monkfish
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:gaCdnZDX445RpDbVnZ2dnUVZ_rvinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbSAT-aedzfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnWAt5qyYdTfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:fZSdnU9yELCptjfVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@ptd.net...
In general - the normal useage is for matter to take up space.
Energy is
not matter in some cases - so it may not count as taking up space
- even
though
it exists everywhere. YES - energy can be matter - wood
contains potential energy and takes up space.
Is matter everywhere?
How does this relate to the potential existence of deities outside
the
imagination of their believers?
I'm not trying to play your game.
I'm trying to show you
that you are using the wrong paradigm.
You don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.
Matter existing everywhere, somewhere or nowhere does not bear on the
existence of deities as far as I can tell.
Is money everywhere?
Still no help. Just another inane question.
You will get it sooner or later.
Give it a couple of years.
Pathetic punt.
|
Is God more like a superman in the sky
or an employer who pays with hope
and just asks you to do more good than harm?
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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monkfish
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:cOSdnWv9Sc1_pzbVnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:qJidnX-5BM1acTfVnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:VJGdnU2qMqm_RjfVnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@ptd.net...
Is it blind faith to observe that you are afflicted with silly
superstitions?
Is democracy a superstition?
Not as far as I am concerned. At least not on any level approaching
the
level that deities are. Please feel free to disagree but do try to
explain yourself instead of just asking another inane question
You have to think for yourself
to comprehend what it means for God to exist.
God is not a superman in the sky.
To believe in God is rather like
to believe in real democracy.
It's not whether it already exists here and now,
but whether you are willing to make it come true.
If I were to wear ruby slippers and click my heals together three times,
it is unlike that I will find myself in Kansas unless I was already in
Kansas. I suppose that you can make deities come true if you count your
imagination as your only abettor of truth.
You know I know you are being silly.
To believe in God is to accept God's commands
as good, wise, and legitimate.
Sure, imagine your deity to give you commands, why not?
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You are probably not qualified to deal with God in person.
You have to settle with getting His message in the Bible.
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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monkfish
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:46udnXw-5MxNoTbVnZ2dnUVZ_qzinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnWMt5qwVdTfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:74adnRBvT4mIrTfVnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Well I guess you can define "real" as things you have imagined if
you want
to. I won't.
Can God be real just as money is real?
No, I can hold money in my hand. I can't hold imaginary beings in my
hand. This is a big difference.
Have you ever seen a crucifix?
Is a crucifix a deity?
It symbolizes God's love.
Mega YUCK! That is just too kinky for me.
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Love is God's currency.
Do you have enough?
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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monkfish
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:cOSdnWr9Sc2WpjbVnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@ptd.net...
MF-2HD wrote:
monkfish wrote:
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:74adnRBvT4mIrTfVnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@ptd.net...
Well I guess you can define "real" as things you have imagined if
you want
to. I won't.
Can God be real just as money is real?
No, I can hold money in my hand. I can't hold imaginary beings in my
hand. This is a big difference.
Have you ever seen a crucifix?
Which is just another idol/god.
Just like money?
You can't buy much ice cream with imaginary deities unless you are some
sort of cult leader and then only indirectly.
|
God's currency is love.
Would you like to get rich quick
in the Reign of God?
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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monkfish
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneCQham7ojbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnZ0s5qyadDfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:7amdnQsWms1HrDfVnZ2dnUVZ_oninZ2d@ptd.net...
Is constructiveness simpler than goodness?
Does it have more explanatory power?
How about symbolic richness?
Oooo! Symbolic richness! That is rich!
Many people would weep at hearing the word 'freedom'.
"Freedom" is a relative term. It is never absolute and to use it that
way
is to abuse it. You can have more or less freedom, but you cannot
just have, or not have, freedom.
Would you like to be absolutely free?
Free from what?
If you carefully read my above post you should find that "freedom" is
not absolute but relative like "big."
Always?
OK, give us an example of something that has absolute freedom . . .
|
Aren't the dead absolutely free from worries?
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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monkfish
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneOQhanwojbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbqAT-budDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:0OidnVVd8srg0TfVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@ptd.net...
Are you trying to say God exists?
Only in imagination.
Is money imaginary?
Can you put deities in your pocket and buy ice cream with them later?
Can you say a few words
and be forgiven for all sins?
Religobabble
Would you like to change people for the better
by just talking to them for an hour or so?
Yes, getting you to give up your superstitious imaginings would make you a
far better person.
|
Still trying to control what people think?
You would be better off trying to learn how to think.
Isn't God more like democracy
than a superman in the sky?
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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monkfish
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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Dan Listermann wrote:
| Quote: |
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneKQhamV3TbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbWAT-ZYdDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:uI6dnclgspXetzfVnZ2dnUVZ_gydnZ2d@ptd.net...
Why are you trying so hard to limit God?
I am not - gods don't exist.
You are confused.
Even if God is created by humans,
He must exist at least as much as money and democracy.
Until you offer an explanation of the above, it will be considered
utter
nonsense.
If humans create something,
that something must exist.
Humans can create imaginary beings that only exist in their minds. Is
that what you mean by "exist?"
How many modes of existence do you have
in your scheme of things?
Me, I deal with the one known as "reality."
You are perfectly free to imagine as many as you want if that floats your
boat.
|
Do numbers exist?
How about justice?
--
monkfish
* alt.atheism is removed from the groups header. |
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Thom Madura
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:GqOdnVqO6otq8TbVnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Thom Madura wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:-I6dneOQhanwojbVnZ2dnUVZ_sTinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbqAT-budDfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:0OidnVVd8srg0TfVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@ptd.net...
Are you trying to say God exists?
Only in imagination.
Is money imaginary?
Can you put deities in your pocket and buy ice cream with them
later?
Can you say a few words
and be forgiven for all sins?
Religobabble
Would you like to change people for the better
by just talking to them for an hour or so?
Sure - I'll be glas to meet your gods and talk to them - when can you
arrange a public meeting - I allert the media!
God speaks through people.
|
Nonsense
| Quote: | Talk to Christians.
|
Hitler was a christian - so was Jim Jones.
Let your gods come in person - and prove they are not just imaginary beings.
If they don't - obviously they are imaginary. |
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Thom Madura
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: How do you decide what to do morally? |
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"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:GqOdnVWO6ose8DbVnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:gaCdnZDX445RpDbVnZ2dnUVZ_rvinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:ddadnbSAT-aedzfVnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:2M2dnWAt5qyYdTfVnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@ptd.net...
Dan Listermann wrote:
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:fZSdnU9yELCptjfVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@ptd.net...
In general - the normal useage is for matter to take up space.
Energy is
not matter in some cases - so it may not count as taking up
space
- even
though
it exists everywhere. YES - energy can be matter - wood
contains potential energy and takes up space.
Is matter everywhere?
How does this relate to the potential existence of deities outside
the
imagination of their believers?
I'm not trying to play your game.
I'm trying to show you
that you are using the wrong paradigm.
You don't seem to be doing a very good job of it.
Matter existing everywhere, somewhere or nowhere does not bear on
the
existence of deities as far as I can tell.
Is money everywhere?
Still no help. Just another inane question.
You will get it sooner or later.
Give it a couple of years.
Pathetic punt.
Is God more like a superman in the sky
or an employer who pays with hope
and just asks you to do more good than harm?
|
We'll find out at the meeting you are setting up.
My guess is that gods can't show up because they don't exist.
They can prove me wrong though. |
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