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Douglas McAdam
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 Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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Hi Mike-
I tried my best to explain all this as I see it but still you seem to
be thinking that God is punishing people for rejecting his
Manifestation even though they have lived good lives. It is not God
Who is punishing those who reject Him, it is the individual who
rejects Him that brings about his own punishment. I tried to explain
by using the analogy of the law of gravity wherein if we choose to
jump off a roof we are going to feel the negative effects physically
even though we are ignorant of the law. I also tried to explain by
use of the analogy of the parent and child where a parent will lay
down rules to the child and explain what will happen if the child
breaks the rule. If the child breaks the rule and is punished is he
to blame the parent or himself?
However the difference is that when it comes to spiritual conditions
all people go forward to the next world, but in the spiritual
condition they caused to themselves in this world and they are given
opportunity by God's Mercy to further develop themselves in that new
world.
regards,
doug
On Oct 11, 2008, at 10:30 PM, mike3 wrote:
| Quote: | On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Dear Mike-
First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of
another soul. That is God's job. All I have done is produced quotes
relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of
that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin
duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. Here is the
specific portion of the quote relevant to this -
Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained
unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray,
though
he be the author of every righteous deed.
That seems pretty clear does it not?
snip
See, and it's this type of stuff that gives me all the confusion, and
makes
me wonder just exactly how good a path the Baha'i Faith is, vs. other
religions or non-religions or whatever.
Because to me, on one hand we have this stuff about peace, about
wonders
and goodness being in the future for all of humanity, something that
seems
incredible and would be a great thing to have, which makes me more
interested
in the religion.
But then, on the _other_ hand, we have stuff like the above, which
doesn't
seem to jive. It *seems* to be saying that God would diss or punish
quite
a bit, someone who devoted their whole life to bettering the world,
went
through much trouble to try and make things better and make people's
lives
more good, but yet be either simply ignorant of the messenger due to
not
hearing about them, or maybe they did hear but they honestly did not
understand that who they heard of _was_ the messenger, etc. etc., and
because of that, all this good to be utterly reduced to nothing at all
in the
eyes of God, and seemingly thus put on the same level as someone like
Hitler who did the exact opposite of everything they did, who
succumbed to
dark evil and committed atrocities that would make the vast majority
of
people sick to the stomach. And also it would suggest 6.494 billion
human
beings are going to all end up horribly miserable in the realms and
universes
the afterlife takes place in. ("Burn in hell" as the Christians call
it though it
probably does not involve literal fire or a specific place called
"hell". But great
torment, despair, and other very negative things nonetheless, right up
there
with Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Saddam Hussein, Emperor Qin, and so on
and
so on, despite having worked all their life to help make the world
_better_ than
that.) That doesn't seem to be like a good God to me, more like a bad
God
(DysTheism -- literally "bad God" -- which I don't subscribe to
either).
Of course one cannot say, yes this *will* happen, as that is making a
judgment
that is impossible (except for God) to make correctly, and so would
not be
fair, but it is the *drift* that I seem to be getting from the quote.
And that is
what I am wondering: am I getting the right *drift* or not (i.e. have
I properly
understood what is really being said by the quote?)? The question is
not
to ask for someone to judge other people's fate, but to ask whether
this
disturbing *drift* is indeed "right on the money" or not.
Anyway, I have not actually committed to the Baha'i Faith, and still
do not
know if I want to, and it's things like these that always create more
controversy
and questions in my mind. Now there are some rules I do not yet grasp
the
logic of, e.g. the head shaving prohibitions (why exactly is that
_bad_ to do?)
and hair length prohibitions (for men), but these don't seem to give
anywhere
near the type of fundamental troubles this stuff I'm discussing here
does.
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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Hi Tom-
I would offer, again from my limited understanding of the Writings,
that it seems to me there is evidence in our Writings that the soul is
capable of discerning and recognizing the Truth when presented but it
is the outer or materialistically conditioned person or ego that
rejects the Truth. So a gang of thugs may indeed have presented Jesus
wrongly to say natives who are unsophisticated and reject at first but
in time that Truth will have an effect. Also if they reject I'm sure
God knows it was because of the faulty presentation and His Mercy
would offer those souls another opportunity for God's Justice would
come into play and it would be unjust I would think to allow those
ignorant people to suffer spiritually by having made bad choice based
on incorrect evidence.
regards,
doug
On Oct 12, 2008, at 4:46 PM, tsuki190 wrote:
| Quote: | If someone has never heard of the messenger, then obviously they have
not rejected
the messenger. QED.
I would also personally apply that to people who have heard of the
messenger in
an ineffective way, e.g. an african native who heard about Jesus
from a drunken
pedophile missionary accompanying an army of conquerors and
rapists. It would
be reasonable to reject out of hand anything promoted by such a gang
of thugs.
Surprisingly some people actually perceived the divine beauty of the
messenger
even under those conditions!
Cheers,
Tom
What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever,
in their whole life?
On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, mike3 <mike4ty4@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Dear Mike-
First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of
another soul. That is God's job.
It wasn't here to ask for a judgment on somebody, I was here to ask
about
something that seemed unfair, stuff that seemed, well, you know,
similar to
what those Christian preachers like to preach about. ("you don't
believe in
JESUS? You're going to BURN! Forever! A good heart is not enough,
you're
still damned and there is NO ESCAPE!")
All I have done is produced quotes
relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of
that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin
duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind
they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God.
What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever,
in their whole life?
Here is the
specific portion of the quote relevant to this -
Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained
unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray,
though
he be the author of every righteous deed.
That seems pretty clear does it not?
So then it would *seem to suggest* that the vast majority of people,
who
have _not_ achieved that duty, would be lost, no matter how good.
That's
the thing that I'm hung up on, it doesn't seem right, to condemn
6.494 billion people like that. Because they've never even _heard_ of
the
Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, etc. That's what doesn't seem fair or
right
to me,
it just doesn't seem right.
My personal feeling is that if people were indeed living lives in
accordance with God's Laws and Teachings then they would readily
recognize the Manifestation when He appears. History seems to show
what happened when the previous religion's believers did not
recognize
the new Manifestations.
I have learned over the years that many souls will reject what I am
teaching them about the Manifestation for today and His Revelation
but
then after a spell they accept. I think this is due to an ego
problem, that the soul really accepts but the ego rejects because it
does want to lose control. I once had a psychologist reject for 15
yrs. my attempts to teach him about how the Baha'i Teachings
relate to
addiction therapy and finally he told me he had been wrong because
he
was only seeing things through his academic training and not by
taking
into consideration the Baha'i Writings. So I don't judge souls, I
simply teach and show them love and understanding. I give them the
Writings and let them deal with it and I answer questions directly.
regards,
doug
On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:03 AM, mike3 wrote:
On Oct 3, 7:12 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
snip
Here is the quote and there are others-
IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN
AND
ALL THAT IS TO BE
The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the
recognition
of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain
of His
laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His
Cause
and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained
unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray,
though
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one
who
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent
glory,
to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world.
These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without
the
other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16)
snip
Hmm. Does this therefore mean that even those people who are really
good in their hearts and have devoted themselves to helping the
world
and
doing as much good as they can for humanity and everything, but who
do not recognize God's prophet, have _failed_ and so are "damned"
and
are actually very miserable? Does this mean that in their
Afterlife,
they
would be lost forever with no hope, despite all that good and stuff
(esp.
all the stuff about "no free will in the afterlife" suggesting no
way
to alter
the course "away" from God that would _appear_ to be set up by
ignorance
of the prophet in spite of all the goodness)?
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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On Oct 12, 2008, at 10:38 PM, compx2 wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Doug,
So what does that quote say Kent?
.... recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the
Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the
Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this
duty hath attained unto all good...
|
That is two duties, i.e. recognition and obedience.
| Quote: |
That is a far cry from Doug: " ...if a person is confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. "
|
Yet Kent this is what the quote says -It clearly states --
"Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso
is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every
righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime
station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance
of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are
inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other."
I did not say this Baha'u'llah did so your disagreement would have to
be with him not me. Why not write an ABM for an opinion.
| Quote: | It is my duty, my first duty, to recognize God on earth. If the
Baha'i Faith keeps moving in this totalitarian, intolerant, whimsical
direction it will not represent much about God at all anymore. It
fails in many ways to manifest God on earth now. But that does not
absolve anyone, especially not me, from my duty to find Him and
recognize His power and devote myself to it.
|
Huh? I don't see the Baha'i Faith moving in the direction you think.
My goodness how can you come up with such conclusions is beyond me.
Just because you disagree with me does not mean the Baha'i Faith is
moving in this direction. Why don't you gain the consultation of a
divine institution if you are so worried about this?
| Quote: |
It is not something we do once and are done with it. It is a constant
struggle to find God wherever you are, whatever you are doing. It is
everyone's duty all the time.
|
I find it a constant struggle to obey having found God and His current
Manifestation in the first place.
| Quote: |
It has nothing to do with the name "Baha'u'llah" or "Baha'i", it is
God's Manifestation, His Existence, His Being on earth. That is the
responsibility, the duty I have as a Baha'i, and if I had to say so,
your intolerance is telling of the fact that you have missed that
Mark.
|
I am only intolerant of your constant habit of making negative
personal remarks about me, or anyone who disagrees with you. Now you
are insinuating that I am not a Baha'i in good standing. How can the
Mods put up with this kind of thing is beyond me.
| Quote: |
Of course it is not my job to judge.
|
Yet you are doing it all the time in connection with me personally and
as you mentioned above and in different other posts your
dissatisfaction with the Baha'i community at large.
| Quote: |
What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and His
Faith?
Working against a group who sincerely believes they have humanity's
best interest at heart, a group like the Baha'is, is another
indication that the person has missed God and His Signs and His
Attributes on earth.
Should we shun them or tolerate them?
We should obey the institutions of the Faith if we want to remain
Baha'is. But should the Baha'i Faith become stacked with intolerant
slime buckets we will be on our own again, like we were before the
Baha'i Revelation. At some future point beyond 1000 years all of the
good servants of God will leave the Baha'i Faith.
|
What do the Writings say about this Kent? Is there any chance the
Faith will deteriorate as you say?
| Quote: |
But no matter what religion we belong to we are never absolved of that
constant, all important duty to God.
|
Yes.
| Quote: |
Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you
can
judge your fellow Baha'is?
I didn't say my interpretation was authoritative, I said yours was
intolerant. Further that opinion you expressed, I would be ashamed to
try to defend it in polite company.
|
So in effect when you judge me intolerant you are offering your
authoritative opinion based on what you call YOUR religion and I'm
talking about the Baha'i Religion of which I will admit I am still a
work in process.
| Quote: |
This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion.
Apparently you are ashamed of it as well.
|
Yes, I am ashamed that non-Baha'is are being exposed to this kind of
ad hominem attacks and cannot understand why the Mods are putting up
with it and so I will not be responding to your negative personal
remarks any further. If you wish to discuss this issue of Alcohol, I
will be glad to accommodate by following the principle of Baha'i
consultation only.
God bless,
d
| Quote: |
--Kent
On Oct 11, 8:06 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:59 PM, compx2 wrote:
You:
...if a person is confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind
they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God.
If I thought that quote said what you think it says I would fight
tooth and nail against the Baha'i Faith. What in intolerant
thought!
If this were the Baha'i Faith I would not just reject it, I would
fight it with everything in me.
So what does that quote say Kent? It is plain English isn't it. I
gave you the sentence several times. Please tell me your
interpretation if you disagree.
Also keep in mind that I qualified what I said by also saying it is
not my job to judge the spiritual condition of a soul it is God's
job. I am just offering the quote relevant to statements you make
about intolerance. What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and His
Faith? Should we shun them or tolerate them?
God is not spiteful, does not reject people, does not pronounce a
life
"useless". Such a conception of God is, in my considered opinion,
petty, simplistic, foolish.
Well there again one could make a strong case from the Word of God
about God's revenge etc. However my own belief is that this refers
to
the fact that inherent in God's Laws are the punishments for
violations. So we punish ourselves by disobedience.
God is better than that.
I am a Baha'i and I am offended that some of my co-religionists are
this intolerant of their fellow humanity to pronounce that "their
understanding" is that God will reject them.
Could that be because you are misunderstanding your fellow Baha'is?
Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you
can
judge your fellow Baha'is?
This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion.
God bless,
doug
--Kent- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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Hi Mike-
I think maybe there is some confusion and misunderstanding about this
due to the limitations of emails and probably my clumsy writing too so
let me clarify my view. Please see my comments inserted below.
On Oct 11, 2008, at 4:50 PM, mike3 wrote:
| Quote: | On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Dear Mike-
First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of
another soul. That is God's job.
It wasn't here to ask for a judgment on somebody, I was here to ask
about
something that seemed unfair, stuff that seemed, well, you know,
similar to
what those Christian preachers like to preach about. ("you don't
believe in
JESUS? You're going to BURN! Forever! A good heart is not enough,
you're
still damned and there is NO ESCAPE!")
|
I was not directing my comment to you, I was simply saying that none
of us can judge the spirituality of another soul.
I think you are misunderstanding the quote for it clearly states the
twin duties. Obviously if a person has never been confronted by
Baha'u'llah, has never had an opportunity to reject or embrace His
Faith then to me that person will not be rejected by God. The Baha'i
Writings seem quite clear that all souls go forward to the next stage
of development or spiritual world and we only take with us the
perfections we have acquired in this world and all will receive the
Mercy of God.
| Quote: |
All I have done is produced quotes
relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of
that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin
duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God.
What about where they've never even _heard_ of the messenger? Ever,
in their whole life?
|
They are not accountable, according to my understanding of the
Writings. They will go forward and then be faced with the reality of
God and His Manifestation and be given God's Mercy. In this world we
don't judge a child sinful if that child has not had an opportunity to
learn right from wrong.
| Quote: |
Here is the
specific portion of the quote relevant to this -
Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained
unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray,
though
he be the author of every righteous deed.
That seems pretty clear does it not?
So then it would *seem to suggest* that the vast majority of people,
who
have _not_ achieved that duty, would be lost, no matter how good.
That's
the thing that I'm hung up on, it doesn't seem right, to condemn
6.494 billion people like that. Because they've never even _heard_ of
the
Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, etc. That's what doesn't seem fair or right
to me,
it just doesn't seem right.
|
I don 't read it that way. Course I'm also putting that quote in the
context of many others regarding the progress of the soul in this and
the next world. Supposing we look at this as if it was academic
education instead of spiritual development. We know there is an
education system, teachers, etc. but yet we choose to not avail
ourselves of it, or maybe we choose to only go through elementary
school, maybe only high school and some choose to better themselves by
attending college and getting a degree. Who is benefitting the most?
Those who denied full education or those who went through the entire
process? Does society benefit the most from those who are ignorant or
from those who are better educated. Now to this add the process of
spiritual education. Who benefits the most those who have spiritual
education or those without, even though they may have full academic
education? Obviously if we decide not to avail ourselves of both
types of education we are holding ourselves back from a fuller
development and will enter the next world in a sort of crippled
state. God did not do this to us we did by making the bad choices
when we had the opportunity.
Only those who have heard of Baha'u'llah and rejected Him are the ones
that are holding themselves back is how I read the quote.
How am I supposed to relate to those who have rejected Baha'u'llah?
Well I treat them with love and respect as any creature of God but I
spend my time trying to teach more receptive souls. I pray for them.
I do not judge them. I know that in time there is a chance the
Message will have its full effect.
regards,
doug |
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compx2
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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Hi Doug,
| Quote: | That is two duties, i.e. recognition and obedience.
|
Yes, of course.
| Quote: | Yet Kent this is what the quote says -It clearly states --
|
Yes it does, it is very clear.
| Quote: | I did not say this Baha'u'llah did so your disagreement would have to
be with him not me.
|
I don't disagree with Baha'u'llah. He did not say " ...if a person is
confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God " you said it.
I don't disagree with what Baha'u'llah said, I disagree with what you
said, quoted above.
"Why not write an ABM for an opinion."
How would that help? I would just get another opinion. There is no
clergy in the Baha'i Faith, so the understanding I have should be
based on my own independent investigation. Isn't that your belief
too, Doug?
| Quote: | Why don't you gain the consultation of a
divine institution if you are so worried about this?
|
I am so worried because you say such things here and no one but me
supplies a reasonable explanation for how such words from Baha'u'llah
can be anything but intolerant. You make it seem as though my
religion believes " ...if a person is confronted by the Manifestation
and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they may be their
acts are useless in the eyes of God."
| Quote: | What do the Writings say about this Kent? Is there any chance the
Faith will deteriorate as you say?
|
The Writings don't say what you say they say.
| Quote: | So in effect when you judge me intolerant you are offering your
authoritative opinion based on what you call YOUR religion and I'm
talking about the Baha'i Religion of which I will admit I am still a
work in process.
|
I am saying that your interpretation of the Words of Baha'u'llah is
plainly intolerant. You are welcomed to your interpretation, but I
don't share it. I am offended, as you are offended, but that doesn't
change the fact that your interpretation of those words fits the
definition of intolerance.
--Kent
On Oct 13, 12:56 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Oct 12, 2008, at 10:38 PM, compx2 wrote:
Hi Doug,
So what does that quote say Kent?
.... recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the
Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the
Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this
duty hath attained unto all good...
That is two duties, i.e. recognition and obedience.
That is a far cry from Doug: " ...if a person is confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. "
Yet Kent this is what the quote says -It clearly states --
"Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso
is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every
righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime
station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance
of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are
inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other."
I did not say this Baha'u'llah did so your disagreement would have to
be with him not me. Why not write an ABM for an opinion.
It is my duty, my first duty, to recognize God on earth. If the
Baha'i Faith keeps moving in this totalitarian, intolerant, whimsical
direction it will not represent much about God at all anymore. It
fails in many ways to manifest God on earth now. But that does not
absolve anyone, especially not me, from my duty to find Him and
recognize His power and devote myself to it.
Huh? I don't see the Baha'i Faith moving in the direction you think.
My goodness how can you come up with such conclusions is beyond me.
Just because you disagree with me does not mean the Baha'i Faith is
moving in this direction. Why don't you gain the consultation of a
divine institution if you are so worried about this?
It is not something we do once and are done with it. It is a constan
t
struggle to find God wherever you are, whatever you are doing. It is
everyone's duty all the time.
I find it a constant struggle to obey having found God and His current
Manifestation in the first place.
It has nothing to do with the name "Baha'u'llah" or "Baha'i", it is
God's Manifestation, His Existence, His Being on earth. That is the
responsibility, the duty I have as a Baha'i, and if I had to say so,
your intolerance is telling of the fact that you have missed that
Mark.
I am only intolerant of your constant habit of making negative
personal remarks about me, or anyone who disagrees with you. Now you
are insinuating that I am not a Baha'i in good standing. How can the
Mods put up with this kind of thing is beyond me.
Of course it is not my job to judge.
Yet you are doing it all the time in connection with me personally and
as you mentioned above and in different other posts your
dissatisfaction with the Baha'i community at large.
What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and His
Faith?
Working against a group who sincerely believes they have humanity's
best interest at heart, a group like the Baha'is, is another
indication that the person has missed God and His Signs and His
Attributes on earth.
Should we shun them or tolerate them?
We should obey the institutions of the Faith if we want to remain
Baha'is. But should the Baha'i Faith become stacked with intolerant
slime buckets we will be on our own again, like we were before the
Baha'i Revelation. At some future point beyond 1000 years all of the
good servants of God will leave the Baha'i Faith.
What do the Writings say about this Kent? Is there any chance the
Faith will deteriorate as you say?
But no matter what religion we belong to we are never absolved of that
constant, all important duty to God.
Yes.
Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you
can
judge your fellow Baha'is?
I didn't say my interpretation was authoritative, I said yours was
intolerant. Further that opinion you expressed, I would be ashamed t
o
try to defend it in polite company.
So in effect when you judge me intolerant you are offering your
authoritative opinion based on what you call YOUR religion and I'm
talking about the Baha'i Religion of which I will admit I am still a
work in process.
This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion.
Apparently you are ashamed of it as well.
Yes, I am ashamed that non-Baha'is are being exposed to this kind of
ad hominem attacks and cannot understand why the Mods are putting up
with it and so I will not be responding to your negative personal
remarks any further. If you wish to discuss this issue of Alcohol, I
will be glad to accommodate by following the principle of Baha'i
consultation only.
God bless,
d
--Kent
On Oct 11, 8:06 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
On Oct 11, 2008, at 1:59 PM, compx2 wrote:
You:
...if a person is confronted by the
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind
they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God.
If I thought that quote said what you think it says I would fight
tooth and nail against the Baha'i Faith. What in intolerant
thought!
If this were the Baha'i Faith I would not just reject it, I would
fight it with everything in me.
So what does that quote say Kent? It is plain English isn't it.
I
gave you the sentence several times. Please tell me your
interpretation if you disagree.
Also keep in mind that I qualified what I said by also saying it is
not my job to judge the spiritual condition of a soul it is God's
job. I am just offering the quote relevant to statements you make
about intolerance. What about a CB who rejects Baha'u'llah and H
is
Faith? Should we shun them or tolerate them?
God is not spiteful, does not reject people, does not pronounce a
life
"useless". Such a conception of God is, in my considered opinion,
petty, simplistic, foolish.
Well there again one could make a strong case from the Word of God
about God's revenge etc. However my own belief is that this refers
to
the fact that inherent in God's Laws are the punishments for
violations. So we punish ourselves by disobedience.
God is better than that.
I am a Baha'i and I am offended that some of my co-religionists are
this intolerant of their fellow humanity to pronounce that "their
understanding" is that God will reject them.
Could that be because you are misunderstanding your fellow Baha'is?
Why do you think your interpretation is authoritative and thus you
can
judge your fellow Baha'is?
This too is another subject that should be dropped in my opinion.
God bless,
doug
--Kent- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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mike3
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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On Oct 13, 9:01 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Mike-
I tried my best to explain all this as I see it but still you seem to
be thinking that God is punishing people for rejecting his
Manifestation even though they have lived good lives. It is not God
Who is punishing those who reject Him, it is the individual who
rejects Him that brings about his own punishment.
|
So the individual, ignorant of the very existence of the messenger, is
actually responsible for bringing themselves to harm, and so the vast
99.9999% of all people are going to bring themselves to horrible
terrible harm?
| Quote: | I tried to explain
by using the analogy of the law of gravity wherein if we choose to
jump off a roof we are going to feel the negative effects physically
even though we are ignorant of the law. I also tried to explain by
use of the analogy of the parent and child where a parent will lay
down rules to the child and explain what will happen if the child
breaks the rule. If the child breaks the rule and is punished is he
to blame the parent or himself?
|
But this "parent" analogy doesn't seem a great analogy: what happens
if the person has never _heard_ of the messenger? Would it be fair to
"punish" them in that circumstance?
| Quote: | However the difference is that when it comes to spiritual conditions
all people go forward to the next world, but in the spiritual
condition they caused to themselves in this world and they are given
opportunity by God's Mercy to further develop themselves in that new
world.
regards,
doug
On Oct 11, 2008, at 10:30 PM, mike3 wrote:
On Oct 11, 8:46 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Dear Mike-
First of all I or any other Baha'i cannot judge the spirituality of
another soul. That is God's job. All I have done is produced quo
tes
relative to the discussion. However I can offer my understanding of
that quote, but in the context of other quotes relative to the twin
duties. My understanding is that if a person is confronted by t
he
Manifestation and rejects Him then no matter how loving and kind they
may be their acts are useless in the eyes of God. Here is the
specific portion of the quote relevant to this -
Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained
unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray,
though
he be the author of every righteous deed.
That seems pretty clear does it not?
snip
See, and it's this type of stuff that gives me all the confusion, and
makes
me wonder just exactly how good a path the Baha'i Faith is, vs. other
religions or non-religions or whatever.
Because to me, on one hand we have this stuff about peace, about
wonders
and goodness being in the future for all of humanity, something that
seems
incredible and would be a great thing to have, which makes me more
interested
in the religion.
But then, on the _other_ hand, we have stuff like the above, which
doesn't
seem to jive. It *seems* to be saying that God would diss or punish
quite
a bit, someone who devoted their whole life to bettering the world,
went
through much trouble to try and make things better and make people's
lives
more good, but yet be either simply ignorant of the messenger due to
not
hearing about them, or maybe they did hear but they honestly did not
understand that who they heard of _was_ the messenger, etc. etc., and
because of that, all this good to be utterly reduced to nothing at all
in the
eyes of God, and seemingly thus put on the same level as someone like
Hitler who did the exact opposite of everything they did, who
succumbed to
dark evil and committed atrocities that would make the vast majority
of
people sick to the stomach. And also it would suggest 6.494 billion
human
beings are going to all end up horribly miserable in the realms and
universes
the afterlife takes place in. ("Burn in hell" as the Christians call
it though it
probably does not involve literal fire or a specific place called
"hell". But great
torment, despair, and other very negative things nonetheless, right up
there
with Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Saddam Hussein, Emperor Qin, and so on
and
so on, despite having worked all their life to help make the world
_better_ than
that.) That doesn't seem to be like a good God to me, more like a bad
God
(DysTheism -- literally "bad God" -- which I don't subscribe to
either).
Of course one cannot say, yes this *will* happen, as that is making a
judgment
that is impossible (except for God) to make correctly, and so would
not be
fair, but it is the *drift* that I seem to be getting from the quote.
And that is
what I am wondering: am I getting the right *drift* or not (i.e. have
I properly
understood what is really being said by the quote?)? The question is
not
to ask for someone to judge other people's fate, but to ask whether
this
disturbing *drift* is indeed "right on the money" or not.
Anyway, I have not actually committed to the Baha'i Faith, and still
do not
know if I want to, and it's things like these that always create more
controversy
and questions in my mind. Now there are some rules I do not yet grasp
the
logic of, e.g. the head shaving prohibitions (why exactly is that
_bad_ to do?)
and hair length prohibitions (for men), but these don't seem to give
anywhere
near the type of fundamental troubles this stuff I'm discussing here
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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Hi Mike-
Please seem my comments below.
On Nov 1, 2008, at 6:03 PM, mike3 wrote:
| Quote: | On Oct 13, 9:01 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Hi Mike-
I tried my best to explain all this as I see it but still you seem to
be thinking that God is punishing people for rejecting his
Manifestation even though they have lived good lives. It is not God
Who is punishing those who reject Him, it is the individual who
rejects Him that brings about his own punishment.
So the individual, ignorant of the very existence of the messenger, is
actually responsible for bringing themselves to harm, and so the vast
99.9999% of all people are going to bring themselves to horrible
terrible harm?
|
I think you are misunderstanding all this my friend. If a person is
ignorant of the chemical content of some natural element and consumes
it and then dies, is that God punishing him or is it out of
ignorance? We are all feeling the effects of disobedience to Laws
even though we did not directly disobey them. When a criminal breaks
the law we are all feeling the effects.
When I realized all this many years ago I decided to either be part of
the problem or part of the solution and so I then decided to be part
of the solution and do service work to help all that I can. And even
at that I'm still feeling the effects of others who simply are
ignorant or just being egocentric.
regards,
doug
> |
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mike3
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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|
On Nov 2, 9:50 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Mike-
Please seem my comments below.
On Nov 1, 2008, at 6:03 PM, mike3 wrote:
On Oct 13, 9:01 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Hi Mike-
I tried my best to explain all this as I see it but still you seem to
be thinking that God is punishing people for rejecting his
Manifestation even though they have lived good lives. It is not
God
Who is punishing those who reject Him, it is the individual who
rejects Him that brings about his own punishment.
So the individual, ignorant of the very existence of the messenger, is
actually responsible for bringing themselves to harm, and so the vast
99.9999% of all people are going to bring themselves to horrible
terrible harm?
I think you are misunderstanding all this my friend. If a person is
ignorant of the chemical content of some natural element and consumes
it and then dies, is that God punishing him or is it out of
ignorance? We are all feeling the effects of disobedience to Laws
even though we did not directly disobey them. When a criminal breaks
the law we are all feeling the effects.
|
So does this mean that 99.9999% of the people on the Earth have "drunk
the fatal brew" and are going to be spiritually "dead" for all
eternity due to
their ignorance of the messenger (and so are violating the Law of
Believing
In the Messenger even if they don't violate many of the other laws) --
God
would not open their eyes and lead them to the messenger? Because my
concerns are not so much about what happens to _me_, but all the
people of this earth. I've seen some very good hearts out there, not
just
ones filled with evil and darkness. And I would not possibly imagine
how
God could either judge them all to be as bad as Hilter, or cause them
to
experience as much misery as would come with the commission of such
grave atrocities.
| Quote: | When I realized all this many years ago I decided to either be part of
the problem or part of the solution and so I then decided to be part
of the solution and do service work to help all that I can. And even
at that I'm still feeling the effects of others who simply are
ignorant or just being egocentric.
regards,
doug
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mike3
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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On Oct 13, 9:56 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Oct 12, 2008, at 10:38 PM, compx2 wrote:
snip
It is not something we do once and are done with it. It is a constan
t
struggle to find God wherever you are, whatever you are doing. It is
everyone's duty all the time.
I find it a constant struggle to obey having found God and His current
Manifestation in the first place.
|
And what about the 99.9999% who have never found or been "confronted"
with the messenger? Are the odds pretty high that they are going to
be in big trouble?
<snip> |
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mike3
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
|
|
On Oct 13, 8:07 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Tom-
I would offer, again from my limited understanding of the Writings,
that it seems to me there is evidence in our Writings that the soul is
capable of discerning and recognizing the Truth when presented but it
is the outer or materialistically conditioned person or ego that
rejects the Truth. So a gang of thugs may indeed have presented Jesus
wrongly to say natives who are unsophisticated and reject at first but
in time that Truth will have an effect. Also if they reject I'm sure
God knows it was because of the faulty presentation and His Mercy
would offer those souls another opportunity for God's Justice would
come into play and it would be unjust I would think to allow those
ignorant people to suffer spiritually by having made bad choice based
on incorrect evidence.
snip |
And it would also seem really unjust to allow people to suffer simply
by
having never heard of them at all, and that it would make more sense
that
at some point they would be informed to know of it, and accept it,
even if
not in this life time and this universe. |
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mike3
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
|
|
On Nov 2, 9:50 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Mike-
Please seem my comments below.
On Nov 1, 2008, at 6:03 PM, mike3 wrote:
On Oct 13, 9:01 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Hi Mike-
I tried my best to explain all this as I see it but still you seem to
be thinking that God is punishing people for rejecting his
Manifestation even though they have lived good lives. It is not
God
Who is punishing those who reject Him, it is the individual who
rejects Him that brings about his own punishment.
So the individual, ignorant of the very existence of the messenger, is
actually responsible for bringing themselves to harm, and so the vast
99.9999% of all people are going to bring themselves to horrible
terrible harm?
I think you are misunderstanding all this my friend. If a person is
ignorant of the chemical content of some natural element and consumes
it and then dies, is that God punishing him or is it out of
ignorance? We are all feeling the effects of disobedience to Laws
even though we did not directly disobey them. When a criminal breaks
the law we are all feeling the effects.
|
But does this mean that a horrible, great misery will befall the
99.99999%
of people out there because they "broke" the law of accepting the
messenger,
which appears to "negate" every good thing they did and so put them in
the same "bin" as Hitler?
| Quote: | When I realized all this many years ago I decided to either be part of
the problem or part of the solution and so I then decided to be part
of the solution and do service work to help all that I can. And even
at that I'm still feeling the effects of others who simply are
ignorant or just being egocentric.
regards,
doug
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mike3
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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On Nov 6, 8:01 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Dear Mike-
I don't know how to make it any simpler but somehow you are
misunderstanding my whole point.
God gave us the physical laws. Whether we accept them or not they
will have an effect on us if we obey or don't obey. Ignorance of the
law is not going to change anything regarding the application of those
laws. However if we learn about them we then can harness them for the
right purposes.
The same thing applies to spiritual laws. God has given them to us
for our own good and whether we accept the Source of not they will
have an effect on us. However it is clearly stated in the quotes you
have been given that God has imposed two duties upon us.
|
Is not that also, however, a spiritual law as well? Otherwise why
would you
be mentioning "spiritual laws" when it is one of these "duties" that
is under
discussion?
| Quote: | Here is the
quote again. -
CXXXIll. The ordinances of God have been sent down from the heaven of
His most august Revelation. All must diligently observe them. Man's
supreme distinction, his real advancement, his final victory, have
always depended, and will continue to depend, upon them. Whoso keepeth
the commandments of God shall attain everlasting felicity.
A twofold obligation resteth upon him who hath recognized the Day
Spring of the Unity of God, and acknowledged the truth of Him Who is
the Manifestation of His oneness. The first is steadfastness in His
love, such steadfastness that neither the clamor of the enemy nor the
claims of the idle pretender can deter him from cleaving unto Him Who
is the Eternal Truth, a steadfastness that taketh no account of them
whatever. The second is strict observance of the laws He hath
prescribed—laws which He hath always ordained, and will continue to
ordain, unto men, and through which the truth may be distinguished and
separated from falsehood. (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah
,
p.289-290)
What does this quote mean to you is more important to me than what I
interpret it to be.
I do not believe that 99.999921777521f the people who have "drunk the fat
al
brew" (an analogy that to me is unrealistic ) will suffer eternally.
|
And so 6.494 billion (or whatever the number is now) people don't have
to
suffer eternally, then, right?
| Quote: | I say this because there are other quotes showing how all souls
progress into the next world and in the condition according to their
development spiritually in this world.
|
But the rub here is that the other quotes you have mentioned says that
having
not accepted the messenger, it seems to render every righteous deed
null
and void, apparently implying that if they were ignorant of the
existence of
the messenger, their spiritual development, at least that from the
deeds,
is ZERO! I'm sorry but that's the way it looks. I.e. a neighbor next
door (that
hasn't heard of the messenger) has made no more or less "spiritual
progress"
than a lifetime crook! Because *all* their deeds are unacceptable to
God
because they share the same damning failure: to accept the messenger!
Which is supposed to render all the deeds unacceptable, according to
the
quotes, no? This is what is so troubling. Because it does not seem
there
is any way around the implication I just mentioned. That 6.494 billion
out
of 6.5 billion people (or whatever the numbers would be now) have not
made
any spiritual progress, regardless of deed, while the remaining 6
million
Baha'is are the only one's who have had a shot at spiritual progress
because
they accept the messenger!
| Quote: | "Suffering for all eternity"
is not something I recognize as coming from the Baha'i Writings, more
than likely something coming from traditional fundamentalist Christian
views.
|
I guess so. It's just that I've heard that type of "eternal damnation"
crap
from so many fundamentalist and extremist religious groups. And so
that's what somehow colors my interpretations, despite not actually
believing in that type of religion myself. As it's, well, too extreme
to
believe in.
| Quote: | I think your comment about God punishing us is also not
something I recognize in the Baha'i Writings. We may inflict
punishment on ourselves in this plane of existence by our ignorance
but I do not find in the Baha'i Writings that this punishment extends
to the eternity. My understanding is that God's Mercy and Justice
would offer us opportunities to correct the situations in the next
world.
|
That would make sense. But would not a consequence, probably not
eternal however as in eternal punishment in Hell or some crap like
that
from a Christian preacher, also be possible in the universes beyond
this one?
To me it would make sense.
| Quote: | I once read a comment by a Hand of the Cause who was asked about
something similar to this. He said that if we violate God's Law about
the prohibition of using opium our teeth would turn black. If we
become aware of God's Law and then decide to obey it our teeth will
still be black but our spiritual development has been enhanced.
Course in modern science today we might also find way to whiten the
teeth again, but the point is that we suffer in this world because or
ignorance but once we are informed and refuse to obey we bring another
punishment upon ourselves.
|
And so then the "punishment" is built right in to the system, and the
"hell fire" is something we "burn" ourselves in.
| Quote: | regards,
doug
On Nov 3, 2008, at 9:26 PM, mike3 wrote:
So does this mean that 99.9999% of the people on the Earth have "drunk
the fatal brew" and are going to be spiritually "dead" for all
eternity due to
their ignorance of the messenger (and so are violating the Law of
Believing
In the Messenger even if they don't violate many of the other laws) --
God
would not open their eyes and lead them to the messenger? Because my
concerns are not so much about what happens to _me_, but all the
people of this earth. I've seen some very good hearts out there, not
just
ones filled with evil and darkness. And I would not possibly imagine
how
God could either judge them all to be as bad as Hilter, or cause them
to
experience as much misery as would come with the commission of such
grave atrocities. |
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
|
|
Dear Mike-
I don't know how to make it any simpler but somehow you are
misunderstanding my whole point.
God gave us the physical laws. Whether we accept them or not they
will have an effect on us if we obey or don't obey. Ignorance of the
law is not going to change anything regarding the application of those
laws. However if we learn about them we then can harness them for the
right purposes.
The same thing applies to spiritual laws. God has given them to us
for our own good and whether we accept the Source of not they will
have an effect on us. However it is clearly stated in the quotes you
have been given that God has imposed two duties upon us. Here is the
quote again. -
CXXXIll. The ordinances of God have been sent down from the heaven of
His most august Revelation. All must diligently observe them. Man's
supreme distinction, his real advancement, his final victory, have
always depended, and will continue to depend, upon them. Whoso keepeth
the commandments of God shall attain everlasting felicity.
A twofold obligation resteth upon him who hath recognized the Day
Spring of the Unity of God, and acknowledged the truth of Him Who is
the Manifestation of His oneness. The first is steadfastness in His
love, such steadfastness that neither the clamor of the enemy nor the
claims of the idle pretender can deter him from cleaving unto Him Who
is the Eternal Truth, a steadfastness that taketh no account of them
whatever. The second is strict observance of the laws He hath
prescribed—laws which He hath always ordained, and will continue to
ordain, unto men, and through which the truth may be distinguished and
separated from falsehood. (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah,
p.289-290)
What does this quote mean to you is more important to me than what I
interpret it to be.
I do not believe that 99.999921777521f the people who have "drunk the fatal
brew" (an analogy that to me is unrealistic ) will suffer eternally.
I say this because there are other quotes showing how all souls
progress into the next world and in the condition according to their
development spiritually in this world. "Suffering for all eternity"
is not something I recognize as coming from the Baha'i Writings, more
than likely something coming from traditional fundamentalist Christian
views. I think your comment about God punishing us is also not
something I recognize in the Baha'i Writings. We may inflict
punishment on ourselves in this plane of existence by our ignorance
but I do not find in the Baha'i Writings that this punishment extends
to the eternity. My understanding is that God's Mercy and Justice
would offer us opportunities to correct the situations in the next
world.
I once read a comment by a Hand of the Cause who was asked about
something similar to this. He said that if we violate God's Law about
the prohibition of using opium our teeth would turn black. If we
become aware of God's Law and then decide to obey it our teeth will
still be black but our spiritual development has been enhanced.
Course in modern science today we might also find way to whiten the
teeth again, but the point is that we suffer in this world because or
ignorance but once we are informed and refuse to obey we bring another
punishment upon ourselves.
regards,
doug
On Nov 3, 2008, at 9:26 PM, mike3 wrote:
| Quote: | So does this mean that 99.9999% of the people on the Earth have "drunk
the fatal brew" and are going to be spiritually "dead" for all
eternity due to
their ignorance of the messenger (and so are violating the Law of
Believing
In the Messenger even if they don't violate many of the other laws) --
God
would not open their eyes and lead them to the messenger? Because my
concerns are not so much about what happens to _me_, but all the
people of this earth. I've seen some very good hearts out there, not
just
ones filled with evil and darkness. And I would not possibly imagine
how
God could either judge them all to be as bad as Hilter, or cause them
to
experience as much misery as would come with the commission of such
grave atrocities. |
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