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Douglas McAdam
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:02 AM, compx2 wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Doug,
There is no conflict within what I said.
Nothing bad will happen if we commit morally neutral actions, like an
occassional drink as Paul said he liked to do. I am sure Paul will
admit that he does not drink in order to aid humanity, he does it
because he wants to, and I submit that he should, he has a right, and
no Baha'i should criticize or hold him in lesser esteem for his
choice.
Kent- |
First of all I am not criticizing Paul or anyone else I am only
sharing what I understand to be what our Writings say about laws from
God. Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and
punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not.
| Quote: |
Just because Baha'is have taken a vow to a higher standard does not
mean that bad things will happen to those who don't take such a vow.
|
I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of
what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. Have you not read of
the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America?
| Quote: |
When we fulfil Baha'u'llah's teachings to change our lives, to act on
the Teachings, to live the life prescribed in the Writings, to be the
Baha'i that 'Abdu'l-Baha asks us to be, repeatedly, we are promised
rewards, confirmations, scattering angels, and much more.
|
Yes.
| Quote: |
On the other hand, those who decide not to take the vows we have
taken, and those who do not cut their hair as prescribed in the Aqdas,
are not promised eternal damnation or a horrible, conflicted life.
|
Nobody is talking about eternal damnation Kent. Do you recall the
twin duties imposed on mankind? Think of it this way. God has
forbidden theft. But there are people who commit thievery. Their
acts cause them to be incarcerated, having to go to Court, maybe
prison, etc. That is a cost to taxpayers. So we all suffer from
someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not.
| Quote: |
You seem to be proscribing a future Baha'i society where Baha'is will
tell Paul he can't drink, and I don't think that will or should
happen. I would hope that those who want to better their lives
through the spirit of God would do so without being forced to by code
of law. And that those who have taken that spiritual mantle would not
try to force on others behavior they have voluntarily chosen for
themselves.
|
No I know of no such thing Kent. I know of only what the Writings say
about the future, that we are establishing God's Kingdom on Earth in
fulfillment of the promise of Jesus the Christ and in our Teachings it
says that no Baha'i has the right to judge others.
| Quote: |
You: " ... why did God gives us those laws?"
So we would voluntarily follow them, and understand through our own
eyes the spiritual value of the deeds we perform. Otherwise we have
God as judge and the Baha'i Faith as police force, and no one
investigating for themselves.
|
Or is it because God knows what we need for our spiritual development
and so He gives us Laws to follow? We need love and unity in the
world and God gives us all the directions we need. We ourselves make
rules in various ways to insure order and organization.
| Quote: |
If a person chooses to lie to his or her mother, perhaps that person
should be marked for life, put in prison, whether that person is 50 or
5 years old, but I don't think so. Certainly we should not lie, but
the truth is, we cannot and therefore should not try to force everyone
to be truthful all the time. Such is impossible, and therefore
futile, so why do it?
|
Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? I'm not and I
don't know of any Baha'i who does this. Our parents gave us rules and
one was to not lie and if we did we were punished to help us get back
on track.
| Quote: |
A law won't help whether it comes from society or God. We still
choose for ourselves. If there are consequences for our lying they
should come from society. But if there are benefits for not lying
they should come from our own, personal, spiritual, internal systems
of reinforcement, self knowledge, respect, virtue and nobility.
|
Then why have laws if they won't be of help?
The consequences from lying can come from parents, from an
organization that expects us to be truthful, but in reality it all
comes from God who gave us laws in which reward and punishment are
inherent.
| Quote: |
Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing
his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer.
I doubt seriously if you meant to say that. But if you did, well, I
would prefer to spend time with the likes of Paul than the likes of
those who would uphold a statement like you make above. I will cast
my lot (am I gambling? Will I be arrested by the Baha'i Police, or
will my life now go to heck?) with those who willingly choose their
life and life style than with those who would force others to change
through laws or ridicule or overgeneralization and exaggeration.
|
Please look at my comments in context. I am speaking of addictions.
Paul said he likes to drink once in a while and is putting up a sort
of rationalization for this habit, a rationalization I used myself
when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs ago and what I constantly here
from many, many people and in my view they are casting votes, dollar
votes too for the entire alcohol industry and the consequences of
addiction and the cost to society which in turn come back to hurt them
in many ways. God did not say it was OK to drink or use drugs once in
a while or socially, He forbid it except under a doctor's
prescription. We can readily see the punishment inflicted on society,
on all of us for disobedience. We are one family and so I will do
what I can to help family members. Do you tell your children it is OK
if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while?
| Quote: |
Paul is just fine in my opinion, and I bristle at the suggestion that
his occassional drink makes him a less than fine human being. However
a holier than thou attitude on the part of people denouncing Paul's
behavior would indicate a problem of character, in my considered
opinion.
I think he is fine too but nobody is saying he is less than a fine |
human being. We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects
on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws.
Please don't suggest such things for that is not my intention at all
and for sure I know of no Baha'i who would say such a thing. We need
to separate behavior from the human being and my belief is that we are
all living souls in seed form, striving as best we can to live a good
life. But laws are laws and disrespect and disobedience to them have
consequences that hurt us all which is why I care to help my close
family and the family of humankind.
doug
| Quote: | --Kent
On Oct 1, 6:50 pm, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Kent, I am lost when trying to understand your opinion here.
You say nothing bad will happen if we don't make a moral commitment
to
the virtues we have chosen to develop and then later you said good
things will happen, not today, not tomorrow but in the long run .
If
a person choses today t be honest isn't that better than being
dishonest? If he or she choses not to do drugs and alcohol, isn't
that going to be better than destroying ones brain and body?
I agree that making things legal or illegal will not solve the
problem
but yet when we become conscious of God's Law and strive to obey it
will make things better won't it? If not then why did God gives us
those laws?
I agree that prison is not the answer. However the purpose of jails
and prisons is to protect the society. Does it protect society to
allow a criminal to be released because he has money and can provide
bail? Does it protect society to incarcerate a lawbreaker and not
provide proper detox, rehab, re-entry and aftercare?
Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing
his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer. From my
perspective and experience there is nothing good about using alcohol
and drugs. I'm old enough to recall how I rationalized their use and
then experienced addiction and I also saw many people claim they are
social drinkers, only drinking once in a while but then something
would happen, they became in need of increased amounts and something
bad would happen to them to cause them to use more and more.
regards,
doug
On Oct 1, 2008, at 8:01 AM, compx2 wrote:
them?
The worst that could happen from Paul drinking alcohol is that he
might get arrested, and he might waste his life. One choice is
society's, the other is Paul's.
--Kent
On Sep 30, 11:46 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
On Sep 29, 2008, at 7:32 PM, PaulHammond wrote:
Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey,
and
a pint or two of beer from time to time.
People can say this to just about anything they want to enjoy. We
alway rationalize our likes and dislikes.
No offense Paul but as a person who deals with addictions and
rehabilitation in a County Jail I hear this kind of sentiment a lot
from citizens with whom I often discuss problems of crime which are
70% related to alcohol and drugs. I think the evidence in society
speaks for itself in that more problems than good are caused by
the
use of these chemicals.
What maybe we need to think about is making decisions based on
proper
knowledge and information not just because we like the feeling of
something.
I believe in God and I believe He sent us Baha'u'llah and
Baha'u'llah
has issued a law that we avoid alcohol unless prescribed by a
Physician. So I obey and I strongly believe that if more people
would
do this we would not be having so many problems. Since one of our
Teachings is the harmony of science and religion then we need to
take
into consideration there must be a good reason scientifically as
well
as spiritually and socially to avoid alcohol.
Even if I was not a Baha'i, because of the problems I see with
these
chemicals, I would be careful about casting any dollar votes
towards
their continuance and so I try to avoid even restaurants that serve
alcohol. Along this line I'm wondering if our problems today with
making alcohol legal are worse or better than when it was not
legal.
regards,
doug- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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compx2
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
|
|
Hi Doug,
| Quote: | Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and
punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not.
|
And what I said was there is no punishment in store for morally
neutral behavior, like Paul's occassional drink, or hair length not in
line with the proscription in the Aqdas.
If you believe there is punishment in store for non-Baha'is, or for
any who refuse to follow Baha'i laws, well, I differ. Actually,
more. I am offended. My religion does not believe in such
punishment, and it will take extraordinary tolerance, forebearance and
grace to accept that those beliefs exist within my religion. I
believe the Baha'i Faith is tolerance, acceptance and unity. Luckily
I will accept your right to be wrong gracefully and not assert that
your misunderstanding of universal Order will pe punished. It's fine,
really.
There is reward and punishment, but that does not mean that Paul's
drinking will be punished. In fact, I would like to take this
opportunity to offer a prayer on Paul's behalf, that he might truly
enjoy his refreshments, and that those refreshments should revitalize
Paul and re-enable him to renew his efforts toward those things Paul
finds valuable. And it is my fervent prayer with all the potency of
every Baha'i ideal that I command that Paul should not be punished for
his refreshments. I pray that the punishments in store for Paul
should rather find me instead.
| Quote: | I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of
what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to.
|
Society's? How about yours and mine? Perhaps we should renounce our
earthly belongings, donate our retirement funds to the poor?
Perhaps society is being punished for our neglect?
| Quote: | Have you not read of
the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America?
|
"All we can reasonably venture to attempt is to strive to obtain a
glimpse of the first streaks of the promised Dawn that must, in the
fullness of time, chase away the gloom that has encircled humanity.
All we can do is to point out, in their broadest outlines, what appear
to us to be the guiding principles underlying the World Order of
Bahá'u'lláh, as amplified and enunciated by 'Abdu'l-Bahá, the Center
of His Covenant with all mankind and the appointed Interpreter and
Expounder of His Word." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of
Baha'u'llah, p. 34)
I say let's chase away the gloom, and deny the punishments from God
for anything other than intentionally hurting others. Rewards, on the
other hand, are in store for anyone who sacrifices for others.
| Quote: | Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful?
|
You talk about God the Punisher. Is it not a Baha'i law to be
truthful? You were talking about all that. How could I have misread
you so badly? That is exactly what I thought you were saying.
| Quote: | So we all suffer from
someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not.
|
Does this mean we should not force people? We should just suck it
up? All you liars out there are hurting everyone, but that's okay. We
don't want to force you to stop. Right?
I have a fundamentally different view. God is not the punisher, but
in many cases religion is. I say religion is what religion does. To
paraphrase a popular quote: good people will to good things, bad
people will do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people
do bad things. When we say that God is going to punish people for
their choice of refreshment it becomes a short step to enforcing God's
laws with self appointed, religiously motivated, police. I am for
tolerance. If God made the law, let God enforce it, and pray that He
is just. It would not be just to punish someone for an occassional
alcoholic drink and more than any other morally neutral behavior, like
vain hair care or flashy clothes.
| Quote: | Do you recall the
twin duties imposed on mankind?
|
I recall twin duties of Baha'is. Please enlighten me.
| Quote: | Then why have laws if they won't be of help?
|
I am the one arguing against the laws. Now you ask me why we have the
things I don't want us to have. Because I am powerless to stop people
like you who want useless, unenforceable laws.
| Quote: | Do you tell your children it is OK
if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while?
|
I taught my children by example, and apparently that was good enough.
I didn't have to imprison them, indoctrinate them, brainwash them. I
gave them respect and allowed them to make their own choices. The
three of them drink occassionally, a lot less than I did at their
ages. I am very proud of them, and I hope there is no God laying in
wait to punish their behavior. I believe God is unconcerned with our
refreshments but rather He sees our deeds, our intentions, our lives.
Alcohol can be harmful, can contribute to excess of passion, health
concerns, waste of time. All of those things can be harmful, but
those things would not disappear from earth if alcohol disappeared
from earth.
| Quote: | We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects
on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws.
|
Alcohol contributes to behavior excesses. It is against Baha'i law.
I disagree that God punishes those who use alcohol. He does not.
Those who practice behavioral excesses shoulder the consequences of
their actions, and you are welcomed to look upon that as God the
Punisher if you like, but He does not punish behavior that does not
harm anyone. To say that He does means He is not fair, He is
irrational.
--Kent
On Oct 2, 11:42 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:02 AM, compx2 wrote:
Hi Doug,
There is no conflict within what I said.
Nothing bad will happen if we commit morally neutral actions, like an
occassional drink as Paul said he liked to do. I am sure Paul will
admit that he does not drink in order to aid humanity, he does it
because he wants to, and I submit that he should, he has a right, and
no Baha'i should criticize or hold him in lesser esteem for his
choice.
Kent-
First of all I am not criticizing Paul or anyone else I am only
sharing what I understand to be what our Writings say about laws from
God. Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and
punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not.
Just because Baha'is have taken a vow to a higher standard does not
mean that bad things will happen to those who don't take such a vow.
I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of
what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. Have you not read of
the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America?
When we fulfil Baha'u'llah's teachings to change our lives, to act on
the Teachings, to live the life prescribed in the Writings, to be the
Baha'i that 'Abdu'l-Baha asks us to be, repeatedly, we are promised
rewards, confirmations, scattering angels, and much more.
Yes.
On the other hand, those who decide not to take the vows we have
taken, and those who do not cut their hair as prescribed in the Aqdas,
are not promised eternal damnation or a horrible, conflicted life.
Nobody is talking about eternal damnation Kent. Do you recall the
twin duties imposed on mankind? Think of it this way. God has
forbidden theft. But there are people who commit thievery. Their
acts cause them to be incarcerated, having to go to Court, maybe
prison, etc. That is a cost to taxpayers. So we all suffer from
someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not.
You seem to be proscribing a future Baha'i society where Baha'is will
tell Paul he can't drink, and I don't think that will or should
happen. I would hope that those who want to better their lives
through the spirit of God would do so without being forced to by code
of law. And that those who have taken that spiritual mantle would no
t
try to force on others behavior they have voluntarily chosen for
themselves.
No I know of no such thing Kent. I know of only what the Writings say
about the future, that we are establishing God's Kingdom on Earth in
fulfillment of the promise of Jesus the Christ and in our Teachings it
says that no Baha'i has the right to judge others.
You: " ... why did God gives us those laws?"
So we would voluntarily follow them, and understand through our own
eyes the spiritual value of the deeds we perform. Otherwise we have
God as judge and the Baha'i Faith as police force, and no one
investigating for themselves.
Or is it because God knows what we need for our spiritual development
and so He gives us Laws to follow? We need love and unity in the
world and God gives us all the directions we need. We ourselves make
rules in various ways to insure order and organization.
If a person chooses to lie to his or her mother, perhaps that person
should be marked for life, put in prison, whether that person is 50 or
5 years old, but I don't think so. Certainly we should not lie, but
the truth is, we cannot and therefore should not try to force everyone
to be truthful all the time. Such is impossible, and therefore
futile, so why do it?
Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? I'm not and I
don't know of any Baha'i who does this. Our parents gave us rules and
one was to not lie and if we did we were punished to help us get back
on track.
A law won't help whether it comes from society or God. We still
choose for ourselves. If there are consequences for our lying they
should come from society. But if there are benefits for not lying
they should come from our own, personal, spiritual, internal systems
of reinforcement, self knowledge, respect, virtue and nobility.
Then why have laws if they won't be of help?
The consequences from lying can come from parents, from an
organization that expects us to be truthful, but in reality it all
comes from God who gave us laws in which reward and punishment are
inherent.
Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by losing
his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer.
I doubt seriously if you meant to say that. But if you did, well, I
would prefer to spend time with the likes of Paul than the likes of
those who would uphold a statement like you make above. I will cast
my lot (am I gambling? Will I be arrested by the Baha'i Police, or
will my life now go to heck?) with those who willingly choose their
life and life style than with those who would force others to change
through laws or ridicule or overgeneralization and exaggeration.
Please look at my comments in context. I am speaking of addictions.
Paul said he likes to drink once in a while and is putting up a sort
of rationalization for this habit, a rationalization I used myself
when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs ago and what I constantly here
from many, many people and in my view they are casting votes, dollar
votes too for the entire alcohol industry and the consequences of
addiction and the cost to society which in turn come back to hurt them
in many ways. God did not say it was OK to drink or use drugs once in
a while or socially, He forbid it except under a doctor's
prescription. We can readily see the punishment inflicted on society,
on all of us for disobedience. We are one family and so I will do
what I can to help family members. Do you tell your children it is OK
if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while?
Paul is just fine in my opinion, and I bristle at the suggestion that
his occassional drink makes him a less than fine human being. Howeve
r
a holier than thou attitude on the part of people denouncing Paul's
behavior would indicate a problem of character, in my considered
opinion.
I think he is fine too but nobody is saying he is less than a fine
human being. We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects
on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws.
Please don't suggest such things for that is not my intention at all
and for sure I know of no Baha'i who would say such a thing. We need
to separate behavior from the human being and my belief is that we are
all living souls in seed form, striving as best we can to live a good
life. But laws are laws and disrespect and disobedience to them have
consequences that hurt us all which is why I care to help my close
family and the family of humankind.
doug |
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Finnegan's Wake
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
|
|
"PaulHammond" <pahammond@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:jNSdnV50q5oms3jVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
Finnegan's Wake wrote:
mikeran37@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cuidnU4zc8A6PX_VnZ2dnUVZ_tPinZ2d@giganews.com...
But, you propose this solution to everyone - which sounds like a
sledgehammer to crack a nut to me.
Besides the fact that I personally like a drop or two of whiskey, and
a pint or two of beer from time to time.
Your puritanism is not an appealing solution, imo.
Label it as unappealing, that is your prerogative. But you just
conceded that it is a solution all the same. Which is a far cry from
Tims original position.
And appealing or not, the original premise that Baha'u'llah prescribed
a course of action that is somehow harmful is negated by your own
concession and the facts that be.
Point of information - these words are my words, Dermod. Something
seems to have gone a bit off with the attribution here.
|
Like you, I wasn't following this thread too closely but these words -
whoever wrote them struck a chord. Puritanism or Prohibition is not the
solution to alcohol or other abuse. Why deprive others of the right to
imbibe purely because some abuse it - on that premise you can ban
everything from cars (driven too fast) to Ipods (high volumes damage
hearing). I prefer to manage rather than avoid risk .. and since, like
yourself, I'm partial to a drop of itself, I'll run the risk of becoming
alcoholic. Having been acquainted with the pure for a few decades now, I
reckon the risk is fairly low.
| Quote: | I wasn't following the conversation that closely earlier, but from
what I gather, Tim was talking about how it's not really right to
blame the substance for all the problems that humans have in dealing
with it, while Mike was pushing the "total abstinence is the only way
to make sure that no-one ever succumbs to alcoholism" line. I'm not
sure if that's because Mike is Baha'i.
|
Tim is right ... no matter how good a thing is it can be abused and no
matter how evil something appears to be it has a beneficial use somewhere.
The substance is neutral - its benefit or abuse lies in the domain of the
humans who use or abuse it.
You can bet your credit crunch that Mikey is singing the party tune - I've
heard it many times before from members of his party and their counterparts
in Ireland, the Pioneer Total Abstinence Society. Though, as you probably
have guessed, I've a liking for Irish Traditional Music, I avoid party tunes
like the plague ... and, the Good Lord knows, we have an abundance of,
usually atrocious, party tunes in this land.
BTW if you watch the linked video to the end you'll see the Reverend
Gentleman reach out for his glass of the black stuff ... nothing better to
moisten the throttle after a fine tune or three. And if it's good enough
for the Protestants sure it must be better for the rest of us.
| Quote: | FW writes: -
You seem to assume that everybody who drinks alcohol is addicted to the
stuff, cannot live without it and is thereby morally decrepit. That's
not
an uncommon sentiment among the killjoys and those who have a morbid fear
of
the devil's buttermilk. The man who can take or leave his drink has
considerably more intestitinal fortitude and moral sway than those who,
never having tasted a drop of the pure, sanctimoniously sit back,
preening
their own virtues whist, inwardly, aware that they are chicken-shit
feared
of succumbing to conviviality.
I drink alcohol from time to time. My brain is not addled and I'm not
addicted to the stuff. Fact is that I enjoy it and that it does me a
power
of good as well as contributing to longevity - a matter commented upon to
me, many years ago, by a guy in the life assurance business who said that
insurance companies prefer moderate regular drinkers to the tee-totallers
as
they live longer.
Let us also not forget the social aspects of the demon drink - I posted,
elsewhere, a link to a video of the Chieftains and friends playing at a
pub
in Westport. I can assure you that the black liquid in the glasses on
the
tables is not lemonade; that the playing of music in pubs is an inherent
part of the island's culture and that, therefore the fiddler is well
worth
his dram. One of the players BTW is the local Church of Ireland rector -
you can spot the dog collar. Here's the link again: -
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rxgQGJ8vKlQ&feature=related
Do note that these are among Ireland's and therefore the world's finest
musicians - could it possibly be that the "black liquidation with the
froth
on top" actually has a positive cultural and social input, if not a
spiritual one. The founder of your faith in all likelihood never tasted
a
drop of the crather and therefore spoke of that with which he was
entirely
unacquainted ... whereas a wise man once observed that music was the
solace
of the soul.
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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|
Hi Kent-
I think there is a communication problem here. Please seem my
comments below.
On Oct 2, 2008, at 10:13 PM, compx2 wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Doug,
Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and
punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not.
And what I said was there is no punishment in store for morally
neutral behavior, like Paul's occassional drink, or hair length not in
line with the proscription in the Aqdas.
|
Can you give me an idea of a morally neutral behavior? Behavior is
either moral or immoral when we talk about drugs, alcohol,
disobedience to laws etc. A person can be ignorant of a law but
violation still may cause that person to experience punishment. You
gave an example of occasional drink or hair length well there are laws
about both and so if we are a believer in God and those revealed laws
then there is bound to be some sort of punishment and reward for
obedience or disobedience. We can see how ignorance of the law of
gravity can cause physical damage, even death to a baby who has no
knowledge of such a law.
| Quote: |
If you believe there is punishment in store for non-Baha'is, or for
any who refuse to follow Baha'i laws, well, I differ. Actually,
more. I am offended. My religion does not believe in such
punishment, and it will take extraordinary tolerance, forebearance and
grace to accept that those beliefs exist within my religion. I
believe the Baha'i Faith is tolerance, acceptance and unity. Luckily
I will accept your right to be wrong gracefully and not assert that
your misunderstanding of universal Order will pe punished. It's fine,
really.
|
I don't know why you should feel offended for I am only sharing my
understanding of the entire process of God creating this Creation,
giving us laws and the capacity to obey which contains reward and
punishment whether we believe in Him and His laws or not. I do not
judge Paul, you or anyone for your behaviors, I am only sharing what I
have learned from my own search. There is no way we can consult
unless we share full, frank, open and honest opinions, tempered with
courtesy, tact and wisdom. I mean no offense but I cannot be
responsible for how you interpret my actions and motives.
| Quote: |
There is reward and punishment, but that does not mean that Paul's
drinking will be punished. In fact, I would like to take this
opportunity to offer a prayer on Paul's behalf, that he might truly
enjoy his refreshments, and that those refreshments should revitalize
Paul and re-enable him to renew his efforts toward those things Paul
finds valuable. And it is my fervent prayer with all the potency of
every Baha'i ideal that I command that Paul should not be punished for
his refreshments. I pray that the punishments in store for Paul
should rather find me instead.
|
I pray also. However science has already proven the harm from
drinking even one drink. The problem is the harm is not that
noticeable until we overdo it. If he wishes to harm his brain and
body that is his right but at the same time he is hurting society by
diminishing his powers. We need his brain and his heart as much as we
need yours. I would caution my children from doing things that could
harm them and why not Paul. The difference is that Paul is an adult
and I don't judge him but I can judge the behavior because it is a law
of God that we do not use alcohol and that law applies to all mankind,
similar to the law of gravity. Spiritual laws effect all Creation and
Creatures. This is what I have learned over my 40 years of study of
the Baha'i Writings.
| Quote: |
I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of
what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to.
Society's? How about yours and mine? Perhaps we should renounce our
earthly belongings, donate our retirement funds to the poor?
|
I am. I devote my entire life to service in my SED project which also
is in obedience to the House of Justice Plan. I am doing all I can
and still not enough. Like I said Kent I am not judging Paul, I am
not dealing here with personalities I am trying to be objective and
focusing on the issues.
| Quote: |
Perhaps society is being punished for our neglect?
|
I think that is true because look at what we have to offer and what
are the results? I don't want to get into a long discussion about
teaching but one must ask oneself, how many souls have I helped bring
into the Faith? Why are we so few? What is our responsibility and
why are we not doing it?
| Quote: |
Have you not read of
the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America?
"All we can reasonably venture to attempt is to strive to obtain a
glimpse of the first streaks of the promised Dawn that must, in the
fullness of time, chase away the gloom that has encircled humanity.
All we can do is to point out, in their broadest outlines, what appear
to us to be the guiding principles underlying the World Order of
Bahá'u'lláh, as amplified and enunciated by 'Abdu'l-Bahá, the
Center
of His Covenant with all mankind and the appointed Interpreter and
Expounder of His Word." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of
Baha'u'llah, p. 34)
I say let's chase away the gloom, and deny the punishments from God
for anything other than intentionally hurting others. Rewards, on the
other hand, are in store for anyone who sacrifices for others.
|
Kent, I am speaking of Shoghi Effendis analysis of the world and the
American condition.
How can we deny the punishments from God when we read the Writings and
see how it is so clear that we must obey His laws and the results of
disobedience is before us each day. Wars, crime, violence, adultery,
abusive behaviors, etc., etc. is abounding all over the globe and some
diseases are pandemic and epidemic. Like I said one may be ignorant
of a law of God but disobedience still brings punishment.
| Quote: |
Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful?
You talk about God the Punisher. Is it not a Baha'i law to be
truthful? You were talking about all that. How could I have misread
you so badly? That is exactly what I thought you were saying.
|
I am not talking about God the Punisher, I am talking about God's
divine system which contains laws what bring reward and punishment to
ourselves by obedience and disobedience. We punish ourselves.
| Quote: |
So we all suffer from
someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not.
Does this mean we should not force people? We should just suck it
up? All you liars out there are hurting everyone, but that's okay. We
don't want to force you to stop. Right?
|
Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about and how you could
deduce this from my comments. I am not trying to force anyone to do
anything, I am striving at my best to obey God's Covenant and my
behavior effects others all over the globe. Just by inhaling and
exhaling molecules we affect others.
| Quote: |
I have a fundamentally different view. God is not the punisher, but
in many cases religion is. I say religion is what religion does. To
paraphrase a popular quote: good people will to good things, bad
people will do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people
do bad things. When we say that God is going to punish people for
their choice of refreshment it becomes a short step to enforcing God's
laws with self appointed, religiously motivated, police. I am for
tolerance. If God made the law, let God enforce it, and pray that He
is just. It would not be just to punish someone for an occassional
alcoholic drink and more than any other morally neutral behavior, like
vain hair care or flashy clothes.
|
Like I said God has created a divine system for mankind and we best
obey or else we suffer from the laws and principles He has put into
effect if we disobey. When I taught my children and also in doing
mgmt. and staff training I taught the rules and what would happen if
they were disobeyed. When they were disobeyed I simple said something
t the effect of, "well you have chosen your punishment, right?"
There is the divinely revealed Religion which will not harm anyone.
On the contrary it will most effectively release human potential. But
the religion (small r) that we create from our limited understanding
of that Divine Religion (capital R) is what can cause harm. I'm not
talking about your religion or mine Kent, meaning our personal
interpretation of the Divine Religion I am talking about Divine
Teachings readily available in the Baha'i Religion.
| Quote: |
Do you recall the
twin duties imposed on mankind?
I recall twin duties of Baha'is. Please enlighten me.
|
Here is the quote and there are others-
IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULEROVER ALL THAT HATH BEEN AND
ALL THAT IS TO BE
The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition
of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His
laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause
and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained
unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though
he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who
reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory,
to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world.
These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the
other. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 16)
| Quote: | Then why have laws if they won't be of help?
I am the one arguing against the laws. Now you ask me why we have the
things I don't want us to have. Because I am powerless to stop people
like you who want useless, unenforceable laws.
|
And once again you are misunderstanding and misinterpreting my
comments. God makes the Laws not me. Sure we have some useless laws
that man has concocted and we can do something about them by voting or
taking some kind of positive action to change them but disobedience of
them is also not something Baha'is are supposed to do. I do not want
useless, unenforceable laws. Just because you don't agree with
something I said does not make me wrong, does it?
| Quote: |
Do you tell your children it is OK
if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while?
I taught my children by example, and apparently that was good enough.
I didn't have to imprison them, indoctrinate them, brainwash them. I
gave them respect and allowed them to make their own choices. The
three of them drink occassionally, a lot less than I did at their
ages. I am very proud of them, and I hope there is no God laying in
wait to punish their behavior. I believe God is unconcerned with our
refreshments but rather He sees our deeds, our intentions, our lives.
Alcohol can be harmful, can contribute to excess of passion, health
concerns, waste of time. All of those things can be harmful, but
those things would not disappear from earth if alcohol disappeared
from earth.
|
I taught my children the same way but they also were influenced by
society at large and especially their peer group and when of legal age
all four experiment with alcohol and marijuana and they all agreed the
Baha'i Writing we right and they stopped using. Kent, you use the
word "refreshments" and others often say "social drinking" and other
say "recreational drugs" and for me all these terms are unrealistic.
There is nothing refreshing, social or recreational (recreating) about
drugs and alcohol. God gave us the laws of prohibition and we now
know from science the harm they can do to our brain and body.
| Quote: |
We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful effects
on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws.
Alcohol contributes to behavior excesses. It is against Baha'i law.
I disagree that God punishes those who use alcohol. He does not.
Those who practice behavioral excesses shoulder the consequences of
their actions, and you are welcomed to look upon that as God the
Punisher if you like, but He does not punish behavior that does not
harm anyone. To say that He does means He is not fair, He is
irrational.
|
It all depends on what point of view we see things. From a systems
and overall view of things I see it quite different. Society is a
system. A family is a system. Corporations, religions and other
collectives are system. Each system has three components, i.e., Human
Resources, Material Resources and Communication (how we perceive these
resources) Our perceptions are the result of conditioning by
discovery, experience and revelation, the three ways we learn. How we
apply these resources is determined by our type, degree and quality of
our education and here I mean body, mind and spirit education, not
just academics. For the system to be effective its member parts must
focus on and take actions to realize the overall goal of love and
unity. We need all our assets, all our resources in prime condition
to be at their highest effectiveness. All our problems are related to
unsatisfied, needs, wants and desires. People want and desire harmful
things even at the expense of their needs. Our physical, intellectual
and spiritual needs all must be satisfied and in harmony to be able to
create sciences and religions that are in harmony which in turn helps
humanity achieve its overall purpose of love and unity. Any damage,
minimal or major will have an effect on all resources.
We are all existing in a state or condition of servitude to God and
humanity and to release our potential we are told to be obedient to
God's Covenant. He gives us Laws to help us release our potential to
become truly spiritual servants. There are all kinds of punishments,
types, degrees etc. and some may not appear to be all that noticeable
and others are. A person getting drunk or high in their own home,
out of sight of their neighbors etc. may think they are doing no harm
but considering their condition of servitude being dependent on the
development and proper application of their God given capacity and
talents they may not really be aware of how much harm they are doing,
nor may we.
Maybe my feelings and attitudes about all this are somewhat colored by
my 29 years of dealing with the harmful effects of these chemicals and
I'm now dealing with third generation addicts but still I see the
wisdom in both science and religion of avoiding them. These addicts
I deal with come in all sizes, types, etc. and they all have tried to
rationalize their habits and many tell me how they had parents who
were only casual drinkers or smokers of pot etc. One thing all this
has taught me and that is that I am not going to cast any positive
votes for anyone who produces and uses such drugs, no matter to what
degree. But I am speaking of behavior and not the soul for only God
can judge the soul so please don't attribute any negative criticism to
me.
regards,
doug
| Quote: |
--Kent
On Oct 2, 11:42 am, Douglas McAdam <douglasmca...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:02 AM, compx2 wrote:
Hi Doug,
There is no conflict within what I said.
Nothing bad will happen if we commit morally neutral actions, like
an
occassional drink as Paul said he liked to do. I am sure Paul will
admit that he does not drink in order to aid humanity, he does it
because he wants to, and I submit that he should, he has a right,
and
no Baha'i should criticize or hold him in lesser esteem for his
choice.
Kent-
First of all I am not criticizing Paul or anyone else I am only
sharing what I understand to be what our Writings say about laws from
God. Don't forget the Writings also tell us there is a reward and
punishment contained in these laws whether we believe in them or not.
Just because Baha'is have taken a vow to a higher standard does not
mean that bad things will happen to those who don't take such a vow.
I think society's present materialistic condition is proof enough of
what happens when God's Laws are not adhered to. Have you not read
of
the Guardian's analysis of the conditions in America?
When we fulfil Baha'u'llah's teachings to change our lives, to act
on
the Teachings, to live the life prescribed in the Writings, to be
the
Baha'i that 'Abdu'l-Baha asks us to be, repeatedly, we are promised
rewards, confirmations, scattering angels, and much more.
Yes.
On the other hand, those who decide not to take the vows we have
taken, and those who do not cut their hair as prescribed in the
Aqdas,
are not promised eternal damnation or a horrible, conflicted life.
Nobody is talking about eternal damnation Kent. Do you recall the
twin duties imposed on mankind? Think of it this way. God has
forbidden theft. But there are people who commit thievery. Their
acts cause them to be incarcerated, having to go to Court, maybe
prison, etc. That is a cost to taxpayers. So we all suffer from
someone breaking God's Laws whether we believe in them or not.
You seem to be proscribing a future Baha'i society where Baha'is
will
tell Paul he can't drink, and I don't think that will or should
happen. I would hope that those who want to better their lives
through the spirit of God would do so without being forced to by
code
of law. And that those who have taken that spiritual mantle would
no
t
try to force on others behavior they have voluntarily chosen for
themselves.
No I know of no such thing Kent. I know of only what the Writings
say
about the future, that we are establishing God's Kingdom on Earth in
fulfillment of the promise of Jesus the Christ and in our Teachings
it
says that no Baha'i has the right to judge others.
You: " ... why did God gives us those laws?"
So we would voluntarily follow them, and understand through our own
eyes the spiritual value of the deeds we perform. Otherwise we have
God as judge and the Baha'i Faith as police force, and no one
investigating for themselves.
Or is it because God knows what we need for our spiritual development
and so He gives us Laws to follow? We need love and unity in the
world and God gives us all the directions we need. We ourselves make
rules in various ways to insure order and organization.
If a person chooses to lie to his or her mother, perhaps that person
should be marked for life, put in prison, whether that person is
50 or
5 years old, but I don't think so. Certainly we should not lie, but
the truth is, we cannot and therefore should not try to force
everyone
to be truthful all the time. Such is impossible, and therefore
futile, so why do it?
Who is talking about forcing everyone to be truthful? I'm not and I
don't know of any Baha'i who does this. Our parents gave us rules
and
one was to not lie and if we did we were punished to help us get back
on track.
A law won't help whether it comes from society or God. We still
choose for ourselves. If there are consequences for our lying they
should come from society. But if there are benefits for not lying
they should come from our own, personal, spiritual, internal systems
of reinforcement, self knowledge, respect, virtue and nobility.
Then why have laws if they won't be of help?
The consequences from lying can come from parents, from an
organization that expects us to be truthful, but in reality it all
comes from God who gave us laws in which reward and punishment are
inherent.
Not only will Paul waste his life but it will hurt society by
losing
his capacity or if a family man his family will suffer.
I doubt seriously if you meant to say that. But if you did, well, I
would prefer to spend time with the likes of Paul than the likes of
those who would uphold a statement like you make above. I will cast
my lot (am I gambling? Will I be arrested by the Baha'i Police, or
will my life now go to heck?) with those who willingly choose their
life and life style than with those who would force others to change
through laws or ridicule or overgeneralization and exaggeration.
Please look at my comments in context. I am speaking of addictions.
Paul said he likes to drink once in a while and is putting up a sort
of rationalization for this habit, a rationalization I used myself
when drinking and using drugs 40 yrs ago and what I constantly here
from many, many people and in my view they are casting votes, dollar
votes too for the entire alcohol industry and the consequences of
addiction and the cost to society which in turn come back to hurt
them
in many ways. God did not say it was OK to drink or use drugs once
in
a while or socially, He forbid it except under a doctor's
prescription. We can readily see the punishment inflicted on
society,
on all of us for disobedience. We are one family and so I will do
what I can to help family members. Do you tell your children it is
OK
if they wish to take a drink or smoke some crack once in a while?
Paul is just fine in my opinion, and I bristle at the suggestion
that
his occassional drink makes him a less than fine human being.
Howeve
r
a holier than thou attitude on the part of people denouncing Paul's
behavior would indicate a problem of character, in my considered
opinion.
I think he is fine too but nobody is saying he is less than a fine
human being. We are simply discussing alcohol and its harmful
effects
on society because by and large society is not obeying God's Laws.
Please don't suggest such things for that is not my intention at all
and for sure I know of no Baha'i who would say such a thing. We need
to separate behavior from the human being and my belief is that we
are
all living souls in seed form, striving as best we can to live a good
life. But laws are laws and disrespect and disobedience to them have
consequences that hurt us all which is why I care to help my close
family and the family of humankind.
doug
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Douglas McAdam
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: God's Side? |
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How does one know if another is doing God's work? How about those who
are Creationists who believe the earth was created in six 24 hr days
and the Creator rested on the seventh? Or the Intelligent Designers,
or those who believe their religion is the only way to heaven and all
others are doomed to hell? I know many nice people who have these
kinds of beliefs. Are they doing God's work.
How about people who are nice folks but upon hearing of Baha'u'llah
they reject Him saying there are no more Prophets or Messengers after
Muhammad. What about people who did not accept Jesus?
Exactly what criteria does on use to determine who is doing God's work?
regards,
doug
On Sep 24, 2008, at 8:39 AM, mikeran37@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | Either you missed my point completely, you are insulting me directly,
or both. My issue is whoever does God's work (basic math)is doing
God's work, no matter what religion they belong to or what name they
Kent, I am appreciating your point but I think you've missed mine.
I'll take your statement above to mean that you do believe education
is necessary.
My point: People need to be educated as Baha'is, because while it is
true that some spiritually enlightened folks will figure it out on
their own, there is no organized group out there teaching the total
packaged principles of the Baha'i Faith other than the Baha'i Faith
itself.
For the very same reason that I send my child to school to learn
math, our society needs to learn the Baha'i Faith. Without this
education, our society will needlessly suffer. I know my child has the
ability to figure math out on his own, but I also know his life will
be alot simpler and easier and he will more readily propser if I teach
it to him.
You are lost in the arguement about whether or not individuals can be
Baha'i without even knowing about the Faith, and my arguement is about
the societies need for the Baha'i Faith.
Not every student you teach will get an A+ in math and not every
Baha'i you teach will do Gods' work. But it does little to change the
fact in either case, that both need to be taught. Failure to do so is
going to result in bad times for everyone.
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Number Eleven - GPEMC!
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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|
<mikeran37@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qNWdnbZE5b1ZzEDVnZ2dnUVZ_sbinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: |
Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an
impossibly
tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will
refer
you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly
specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you
to
a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple
specialties;
an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed
and
The first premise of your argument that the translation is wrong only
|
Not a premise but a contingency.
| Quote: | reveals either a lack of knowledge of the Baha'i Faith, persian or
lack of exposure to the Guardians translations.[SNIP]
|
This still doesn't answer the dilemma - but if you only look at things one
contingency at a time, you miss the dilemma. By the way, my exposure to the
Guardian's translations is sufficient to know that they are riddled with
errors. For example, "divers" is a plural noun, while the adjective is,
"diverse". You don't need any Persian to pick mistakes like this, nor do you
need any Persian to know the difference between a doctor and a physician.
| Quote: | "the use of alcohol is permitted if it is prescribed by a physician
for treatment purposes"
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 350)
|
The Guardian uses the word, "physician", and none of:
General Practitioner
Medical Practitioner
[Medical] Specialist
[Medical] Doctor
| Quote: | referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in
their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely
rare
diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed.
The second premise that some may never find physicians or have
access to care leads me to two flaws in your position.
First, in a society which lacks a physician (of which we do have
examples) the average lifespan falls due to many other factors (in
particular war related death, sanitation, and famine).
[SNIP] |
Firstly, a doctor, GP or medical practitioner is not a physician. Remember
what I said about multiple specialties?
| Quote: | If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer
you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with monthly
specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer you
to
a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple
specialties; |
People see medical doctors for treatment, and not physicians. If
Baha'u'llah/Effendi wanted to make a medical prescription for alcohol
accessible to those who needed it, he/they would have simply said "medical
practitioner" and not have limited choice of doctor to someone with multiple
specialites (IE a physician) that only the head of a medical school would
probably be able to refer.
| Quote: | Secondly, across the board people do not know in advance who does or
who does not have the genetic predisposition to becoming an alcoholic.
|
[SNIP]
That's because alcoholism is a psychological disorder where the gene only
sets the initial psychological parameters. As confirmed by engineering
studies of neural networks, the human brain generally overlays or alters
apsects of its neurological structure according to repetition as it occurs
in reinforcement by experience.
[SNIP]
| Quote: | Furthermore, blaming the substance and not the choice to abuse it is part
of
the problem. I can choose to have half a glass of red wine with my meal
if
You're presuming that we're all the same.
|
No, I'm not. I'm presuming what Jung and numerous neural network engineers
have found; we are the sum of our experiences - and this ultimately rewrites
the psychology set by our original genetic blueprint. This is why twins, no
matter how idententical in physiology, are always psychologically distinct,
and often display different temperament. It is also why the "irresistable"
urge to abuse alcohol is a sham. I've seen depressant addicts up close.
They'd drink sewage if they thought it would put them to sleep. It's not a
gene, it's a reluctance to accept reality.
| Quote: | That because you can handle
your beer, somehow the other people who can't are weaker than you. You
can't know this. And with genetics, the scientific evidence is against
you here.
|
I don't buy the "weaker" vs "stronger" argument. That's how Eugenics was
justified, and it is completely contradicted by what we have learned about
neural networks. The genetic "predisposition" is based on a statistical
correlation that does nothing to confirm cause. Statistical correlations do
not establish cause. Thus the scientific evidence does not support any cause
at the present time.
The link between temperament and genetics is unclear. Half of the
Myer-Briggs scales show a distribution that is identical to genetic
distribution of dominant/recessive alleles. Yet, many people who score at
one end of the scale, have made themselves quite comfortable living at the
other end of the scale. This speaks to the power of neural networks to
rebuild themselves after their own design.
Cigarette smoking has several times the fatality of alcohol abuse, yet it is
neglected. Why?
[SNIP]
| Quote: | What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it
affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and
[SNIP]
You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and
famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year?
[SNIP] |
Where exactly did I say that AIDS does not affect the poor?
____________________________________________________________
Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email.
Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info
Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security.
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Larry Gusaas
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Medicos WAS:Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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Number Eleven - GPEMC!, 2008/10/05 8:53 PM:
| Quote: | "Larry Gusaas" <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> wrote in message
Huh? Maybe in your small part of the world. My GP is a Physician. If I
want to look up his phone number in the Yellow pages and look under
Doctors, there are no listings. It say see Physicians & Surgeons.
Not every country of the world is one of the United States of America. In
Australia, if you want to find a physician - good luck! Doctors on the other
hand are so common here that there's one in every other strip mall. But if
you have a rare disease such as the one that expresses Graves disease and
lecithin allergy as symptoms, God help you!
|
My country is not part of the United States of America. Your difficulty
in finding a physician in Australia has nothing to do with the accuracy
of the translation.
--
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese |
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Number Eleven - GPEMC!
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Medicos WAS:Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
|
|
"Larry Gusaas" <larry.gusaas@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sdadnaD4zakq7EHVnZ2dnUVZ_sPinZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Number Eleven - GPEMC!, 2008/09/25 10:27 PM:
mikeran37@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HvOdnXMXPugzA0fVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com...
SNIP /
1. The Baha'i Faith leaves provisions by which a physician may
prescribe daily red wine or anything else should it be deemed to
benefit our health.
Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an
impossibly
tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will
refer
you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with
monthly
specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer
you to
a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple
specialties;
an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed
and
referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in
their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely
rare
diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed.
Huh? Maybe in your small part of the world. My GP is a Physician. If I
want to look up his phone number in the Yellow pages and look under
Doctors, there are no listings. It say see Physicians & Surgeons.
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Not every country of the world is one of the United States of America. In
Australia, if you want to find a physician - good luck! Doctors on the other
hand are so common here that there's one in every other strip mall. But if
you have a rare disease such as the one that expresses Graves disease and
lecithin allergy as symptoms, God help you!
Does your "physician" know the disease that expresses both Graves disease
and lecithin allergy as symptoms? If he doesn't, I'd suggest he is most
certainly *not* a physician.
____________________________________________________________
Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email.
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Enty Ell
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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"divers" - archaic adjective meaning many and different!
Also a plural noun in modern use.
Cheers
Mike
"Number Eleven - GPEMC!" <eleven_is_the_number@timothycasey.info> wrote in
message news:YridnTa_G9Sl6HTVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@giganews.com...
| Quote: | mikeran37@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qNWdnbZE5b1ZzEDVnZ2dnUVZ_sbinZ2d@giganews.com...
Either the translation is wrong or the Baha'u'llah is making an
impossibly
tall order here. If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will
refer
you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with
monthly
specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer
you
to
a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple
specialties;
an advantage when dealing with diseases that are routinely misdiagnosed
and
The first premise of your argument that the translation is wrong only
Not a premise but a contingency.
reveals either a lack of knowledge of the Baha'i Faith, persian or
lack of exposure to the Guardians translations.[SNIP]
This still doesn't answer the dilemma - but if you only look at things one
contingency at a time, you miss the dilemma. By the way, my exposure to
the
Guardian's translations is sufficient to know that they are riddled with
errors. For example, "divers" is a plural noun, while the adjective is,
"diverse". You don't need any Persian to pick mistakes like this, nor do
you
need any Persian to know the difference between a doctor and a physician.
"the use of alcohol is permitted if it is prescribed by a physician
for treatment purposes"
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 350)
The Guardian uses the word, "physician", and none of:
General Practitioner
Medical Practitioner
[Medical] Specialist
[Medical] Doctor
referred to the wrong specialist. Most people never meet a physician in
their entire lifetime as they often wind up in teaching, and extremely
rare
diseases usually kill you long before they are likely to be diagnosed.
The second premise that some may never find physicians or have
access to care leads me to two flaws in your position.
First, in a society which lacks a physician (of which we do have
examples) the average lifespan falls due to many other factors (in
particular war related death, sanitation, and famine).
[SNIP]
Firstly, a doctor, GP or medical practitioner is not a physician. Remember
what I said about multiple specialties?
If you have a serious problem, your doctor or GP will refer
you to a specialist. If after many years of going in circles with
monthly
specialist consultation, you still get nowhere, one of them may refer
you
to
a physician. A Physician is like a specialist but with multiple
specialties;
People see medical doctors for treatment, and not physicians. If
Baha'u'llah/Effendi wanted to make a medical prescription for alcohol
accessible to those who needed it, he/they would have simply said "medical
practitioner" and not have limited choice of doctor to someone with
multiple
specialites (IE a physician) that only the head of a medical school would
probably be able to refer.
Secondly, across the board people do not know in advance who does or
who does not have the genetic predisposition to becoming an alcoholic.
[SNIP]
That's because alcoholism is a psychological disorder where the gene only
sets the initial psychological parameters. As confirmed by engineering
studies of neural networks, the human brain generally overlays or alters
apsects of its neurological structure according to repetition as it occurs
in reinforcement by experience.
[SNIP]
Furthermore, blaming the substance and not the choice to abuse it is
part
of
the problem. I can choose to have half a glass of red wine with my meal
if
You're presuming that we're all the same.
No, I'm not. I'm presuming what Jung and numerous neural network engineers
have found; we are the sum of our experiences - and this ultimately
rewrites
the psychology set by our original genetic blueprint. This is why twins,
no
matter how idententical in physiology, are always psychologically
distinct,
and often display different temperament. It is also why the "irresistable"
urge to abuse alcohol is a sham. I've seen depressant addicts up close.
They'd drink sewage if they thought it would put them to sleep. It's not a
gene, it's a reluctance to accept reality.
That because you can handle
your beer, somehow the other people who can't are weaker than you. You
can't know this. And with genetics, the scientific evidence is against
you here.
I don't buy the "weaker" vs "stronger" argument. That's how Eugenics was
justified, and it is completely contradicted by what we have learned about
neural networks. The genetic "predisposition" is based on a statistical
correlation that does nothing to confirm cause. Statistical correlations
do
not establish cause. Thus the scientific evidence does not support any
cause
at the present time.
The link between temperament and genetics is unclear. Half of the
Myer-Briggs scales show a distribution that is identical to genetic
distribution of dominant/recessive alleles. Yet, many people who score at
one end of the scale, have made themselves quite comfortable living at the
other end of the scale. This speaks to the power of neural networks to
rebuild themselves after their own design.
Cigarette smoking has several times the fatality of alcohol abuse, yet it
is
neglected. Why?
[SNIP]
What about malaria? The only reason AIDS gets more press is because it
affects the rich and famous while malaria does not because the rich and
[SNIP]
You're proposing that AIDs only affects the rich and
famous and not the 1.5 million africans who died last year?
[SNIP]
Where exactly did I say that AIDS does not affect the poor?
____________________________________________________________
Timothy Casey GPEMC - Eleven is the number@timothycasey.info to email.
Philosophical Essays: http://timothycasey.info
Speed Reading: http://speed-reading-comprehension.com
Software: http://fieldcraft.biz; Scientific IQ Test, Web Menus, Security.
Science & Geology: http://geologist-1011.com; http://geologist-1011.net
Technical & Web Design: http://web-design-1011.com
--
GPEMC! Anti-SPAM email conditions apply. See www.fieldcraft.biz/GPEMC
The General Public Electronic Mail Contract is free for public use.
If enough of us participate, we can launch a class action to end SPAM
Put GPEMC in your signature to join the fight. Invoice a SPAMmer today!
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Alcohol Was: Re: God's Side? |
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Tim, there's nothing new in your latest post, and you still haven't
established any level of credibility with me. I keep trying to drop
this subject but it still calls out to me. Why argue with Baha'is
about somthing which the other 6 million Baha'is take as fact? A
physician, doctor, medical doctor..etc. can prescribe alchohol to a
Baha'i. There is nothing against this in our faith.
Since we're on the subject of Alcohol and it's health benefits, I'd
like to point out a few of it's deleterious effects as well.
1. Alcohol and Cancer
The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International
de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has
classified alcohol as a Group 1 carcinogen. Its evaluation states,
"There is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of alcoholic
beverages in humans.… Alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic to humans
(Group 1)."[5]
The NIAAA states that "Although epidemiologic studies have found a
clear association between alcohol consumption and development of
certain types of cancer, study findings are often inconsistent and may
vary by country and by type of cancer."[3]
2. Head and neck cancer
Head and neck cancers, as used in this article, mean cancers of the
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